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When will Orchard be prime time ready??

Topics: General
Apr 16, 2013 at 9:28 AM
For me this still looks like a beta product.

I know that competition is huge and your late to the game which means you also need to do allot more work, I think you should polish Orchard to be adopted on a larger scale.

Id like to list a few things I think is missing and should be polished. These are the things that just cant get me over from Wordpress. Also ill list stuff that would be fantastic to have.
  1. "Your Site" logo in admin = terrible - it should know the name of the site.
  2. "User Login" on top-right in admin = terrible
  3. Adding some descriptions below titles of pages in admin would be great - what is a New Projection??
  4. HTML editor in page body = very old - this should be a "Its there if you need it" like the command prompt in windows, useful but not to 95% of users... A more modern solution is a Page Builder concept = lots of various widgets that can be drag and dropped to a page with its own editors to fill out the content. something similar to this:
  5. Documentation is almost non-existent, aside from generating a new theme or a module I have no clue on how to do anything else. Much less on how to extend a "New Page" section to do what I listed just above. This needs some serious work, and is paramount to any successful CMS.
  6. Content section is good but needs languages/globalization and it needs to be sorted right (like it is in Sitefinity)
  7. Blogs don't show if they have posts, only comments which is weird, also it looks like im managing purchase orders and line items, and not blog.
  8. Whats a query? Someone mentioned that orchard is very powerfull but it has a steep learning curve. I think that's good, but it should be documented better.
  9. Menus are good, but lacks buttons for cancel or close when editing them (back button on browser is not user friendly) Also I think content picker should be inline not separate window (or at least an inline popup)
  10. Modules are good but gallery is poorly organized - some times I download the source just because it has all of "Team Orchard" modules inside, and hunting them individually from gallery is just stupid. In-house modules should be in its own category (or feed).
  11. Concerning modules, each module when submitted should tick a major version checkbox (1.4, 1.5, 1.6) this way only modules confirmed for your version could be displayed and used. And module vendors need to check if it works anyway. So why not.
  12. Themes - Main theme should be responsive that's a must have today (even MVC4 template has it). Also using javascript to match widths and heights is good. take a look at YooTheme warp framework
I hope you read this post and will consider implementing some of the things listed. At least the things to polish it a bit and more documentation.

The reason I'm posting this is I already think Orchard is great and much better in many aspects from Wordpress and the rest, even in this early stages.
Apr 16, 2013 at 10:22 AM
I would rather the team not spend too much time polishing things, I can do that if I need to, but rather spend time on major things and bug fixes.
For instance, who really cares about the admin logo or the User login on the admin side, it does what it needs to do, and you could always change it if you want.

You do make some valid points, but again, the editor, there is a module that can replace it with the CKEditor.
I like the fact that the core orchard provides a base, and not much I don't need, I can write the rest.

I do agree, more documentation would be good, but again, do they spend time doing that or new features/updates, its a tricky one really!
Apr 16, 2013 at 11:18 AM
Yes, BUT other communities thrived on its noob users, millions of users that have no clue how to use a CMS much less change anything. I don't even know how to change the "Your Site" thing, if I present it to a customer like it is, it wont work. And spending time to find it in non-existent documentation will not help my cause. The bottom line is this simple things turn users away and if there are no users, professional developers don't have any reason to create quality premium themes and modules for the platform. You must polish it.
Apr 16, 2013 at 11:34 AM
I'm not disagreeing that some polishing would be welcome... but... for users who use it as a blog - would they be bothered if the logo on the admin side was the orchard logo... I doubt it.

Then for the people who pay us developers for a site, well that's what we are paid for - to develop. It does have a steep learning curve, but its like anything if you don't put the time in then what's the point.

Documentation does need doing, but to make it so with a couple of clicks you can change the image in the admin for instance.. at this moment in time, personally, I think there are bigger fish to fry.

With enough time and thought I believe even it its current state (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it now) you can do most things.
For instance we have a site going live next week, based on orchard. I have written a module and it now fully integrates with our back end Microsoft Dynamics Nav, this is impressive stuff for a CMS that is still in its infancy, yes there is things that need doing, but I don't believe the dev team should be spending time on little thing like changing admin logos easily with a few clicks when newer feature, fixes and speed improvements are needed more.

But this is just my opinion :)
Apr 16, 2013 at 12:41 PM
Why not use some of the methods that other open source projects use.

1.7 could be a feature version
1.8 polish
1.9 feature


It is nice adding all kinds of new features, but at the moment none of the existing features really 'shine'. Some polish wouldn't be bad imho...
Apr 16, 2013 at 3:40 PM
Apr 16, 2013 at 7:52 PM
Documentation is the major hurdle here. As much as I like the architecture, this project is going nowhere unless it is well documented and accessible for new users. Currently there is is barely any info on major components like projections etc. happy to get involved and help, but basic docs are needed to get a grasp on architecture.
Apr 17, 2013 at 6:44 AM
Some good points in a slightly abrasive package ;)

Seriously, any of those suggestions are welcome to be implemented by anyone who feels strongly enough about them. This is the case with pretty much anything (including documentation): we all build the things we need, as we need them. If you need or feel strongly about something and have the ability to build it, by all means, please do.
Apr 17, 2013 at 6:25 PM
And if you feel you want to implement one of these features, we can design it with you and help you during the implementation. That's how we did for a bunch of modules. We did it this way on the Orchard.ContentItemPermissions module done by Chris Pyle and now included into Core, and Orchard.MediaProcessing done by John Murdock, which is to be included in Core for 1.7. Those features would not have been done if those guys had not decided to do it, and if they had not asked for help on how to design them correctly.
Jul 8, 2013 at 4:32 PM
It is the core where things go wrong... I said it multiple times before: Orchard cannot handle a large, growing amount of content.

Always asking people to fix this in separate module is just pointless when the 'core' is rotten.
  • Import/Export is unuseable if you have a large collection of content (of users)
  • When updating an alias it fetches ALL of the aliases every time from DB (ours has 3k entries so far)
  • Fetching part / field / type info is not optimized
  • Singleton services that can be launched more than once (looking at you, indexer task)
  • Gallery is 'pointless' as it is now. It is like playing russian roulete: might find something very nice, or something that nukes your site...
  • and more...
Note: Talking about 1.6 here

We had to do multiple core hacks to try make it work with our growing collection of content, but some things we simply cannot fix ourselves since they are too deep :/

So I would say: spend LESS time on adding in new features, and MORE time on POLISHING the ones you already offer!

As I have to say now, after some good time spent with orchard: Orchard has a lot of stuff built in, but it is quality people... NOT quantity!

I'm talking to the ones who actually designed & wrote the troubled core bits: Please, polish it up! So we have a working core to work with, instead of one that is sticking together using clay (pun intended).
Jul 8, 2013 at 4:57 PM
Edited Jul 8, 2013 at 5:25 PM
@AimOrchard you are true, but its is clear that Orchard is not built for massive data & transaction environments.
It takes years to build such a product and it seems clear that it was not the initial target.
Jul 8, 2013 at 5:02 PM
The problem is: Is Orchard really only meant for single user tiny blogs? Since orchard, as it is now, is not designed to allow any growth.

Made your site in Orchard and all the sudden it becomes popular and you add in a lot of content / plenty of users start joining?

Prepare to switch CMS or go through hell to try figure out what is wrong in the core of Orchard :/

That said, could you give me your definition of 'massive' as, while I consider our site 'big', I do not consider it 'massive'.
Jul 8, 2013 at 5:14 PM
Edited Jul 8, 2013 at 5:27 PM
I must agree I have no idea, only working with small size sites. ... Yahoo ? MSN ? Google ? Youtube ?
Years ago I had experience with a large telecom operator site, they used Apache...and plenty load balancers.
My experience with massive was not with internet but with prepaid telephony with 5000 transaction/second (small transactions that's the worst case) on SQL Server, at that time it was large, to day it is a common workload....
You have already mentionned managing heavy loaded sites, what are their key numbers ?
Jul 8, 2013 at 6:24 PM
Documentation, Performance, Features, Quality (including bug fixing), Ecosystem (website, community support, gallery, conferences ...)

One can't work on everything at the same time. And I agree with your points.

Orchard could use your help. Want some guidance, I am in, my skype alias is obvious, ping me.
Jul 9, 2013 at 7:45 AM
I'll keep that offer on hold, but thanks anyway. I already spend past 2 weeks+ on core fixes (well, more like hacks) while I was supposed to work on new projects, but heavy load kept making our client' site unuseable almost daily :/

Finally getting to a point where it is stable again.
Jul 15, 2013 at 7:45 AM
Since our problems are still not resolved, I might take your aid. Could you tell me at what times you're available the most (GMT based please)
Jul 15, 2013 at 9:39 PM
Hey AimOrchard are you in the UK?